HR as an Accelerator of Business Agility

Pretty Agile was super excited to host our friend and Agile HR guru Fabiola Eyholzer at the SAFe Australia Online Meetup for an exploration of Agile HR and its role in enabling Business Agility.

Transcript

Em: Good afternoon, folks, and welcome to the SAFe Australia Online meetup. I think we have a combination of folks here from around Australia and nearby places or maybe in places with friendly time zones, even if they're not nearby. I think I've seen some signups come through from both New Zealand and Southeast Asia. I think I saw some from the Philippines and Singapore, and perhaps even some from India. So, our usual Australia and the world type scenario, which some of you would probably be used to given I can see some familiar faces here. So, today, I am very excited to have Fabiola with us. I think I met Fabiola at maybe the Global Scrum Gathering in 2015 I think.

Good, because she's nodding. It was something like that, and I guess I've known her ever since. So, I’ve run into her in SAFe circles over the years. We tend to attend the same events, and we get to trade stories, and we often get to chat about what each other is doing and how we've run experiments.

So that's been very fun over the years. Fabiola is heading out our way for those of you who are in this part of the world, which is very exciting. And what Fabiola does is Agile HR. So she's heading in our direction. As part of doing that, I thought we'd warm up [and[ have a little taste of some of the things we can learn from Fabiola and her team before she gets here. So, on that note, I'm going to stop talking because most of you know me, and you've heard me before, and I'm going to hand the floor to Fabiola.

Fabiola: Thank you so much, and welcome everyone. I'm thrilled to be here with you to talk about something that is very close to my heart: HR agility and bringing HR or people and culture into the 21st century and really humanising places of work. And there is no better way to leverage that than through agility. What we are going to do today is I thought I'll just give you a brief overview, share a couple of thoughts that we have while we are in this business and what are the things that are changing and why it's important for HR to align to Agile and how HR is also an accelerator of business agility. So, this is not just about the Agile community sharing their thoughts and their experiences with the Agile community. This is also about HR accelerating business agility. So we'll talk a bit about that, and then we'll open up the floor for questions.

As I talk, any questions that come up either related to what I'm sharing in that moment or other questions that you have as they relate to the topic, feel free to put that into the chat and then we get through to it throughout the talk or once we open up our Q&A session. 

The (r)evolution of work

Okay, so obviously, when we talk about revolutionising the way that we work, we also need to talk about what is this new world of work. And today, when people hear the revolution of work, they think of COVID, they think of the global pandemic. And yes, it did put us into a free fall in many cases, and it changed the way that we look at work. But this revolution of work started way before the pandemic. And I mean, everyone who's been in the Agile space has been part of shaping that new way of working.

And I really like this quote here from Maurice Conti, he said this in 2017, "Over the course of the next 20 years, more will change around the way that we do our work than has happened in the last 2,000 years."

"Over the course of the next 20 years, more will change around the way that we do our work than has happened in the last 2,000 years."

Maurice Conti, Futurist

I mean, let's digest that. In the next two decades, more will change around the way that we work, what we understand what work is that has happened in the last two millennia. And that essentially means we have two decades time to actually figure this out. And here's the thing about the future of work. It's not going to emerge fully fledged overnight. All of us could actually get to shape it. So what are the things that are actually changing, and why are we saying the world of work is going to be so fundamentally different to what we know today? And, of course, technology is at the forefront.

Technology as Disruptor

Technology is really the big disruptor to the way that we are working, especially now. We are moving into the augmented era. We have AI, artificial intelligence, that is really changing the way that we work. And it leaves us with that question with all of these jobs being automated. Today we talk about [the] automation of jobs that we previously didn't think could be automated. Think 20 years ago. Automation meant assembly line workers, people doing the same movement day in [and] day out. Those jobs have been long automated, but today, it's even physicians [and]other positions that are being automated. And that leaves us with the question, what type of work is actually left for us humans? Because machines are going to do things faster and quicker. They don't get tired; they're not complaining. You don't need to worry about employee happiness and social contribution. They're doing it. So the question is, what is left for us humans?

Humanise Work

This is really about what type of work needs our emotional and social intelligence, our capability and capacity for curiosity and imagination and collaboration. And that is the type of work that we're catering to in the future. And that is going to be the big differentiator for organisations going forward. Yes, they need to be able to leverage technology, but that is already happening. But the other part is how do we leverage what only humans bring to the table? But of course, that is shaking up the way we understand the term work because work in the past, what did it mean?

As a boss, I am going to tell you what to do and how to do it, and you are just going to repeat it. Here is your script, here is your job description. At the end of the year, we got to check in and see how well you did. Did you tick all those boxes? But that's no longer what work is. Work is value contribution; work is leveraging diversity of thought. 

From Company as a Machine to Company as an Ecosystem

So, we really need to change the way that we look at the world. And it also means we need to change the way that we look at organisations. Today, the image that comes to mind when we talk about organisations is the organisation is a machine running like a well-oiled engine or running like a Swiss clock. But what happens to a machine? How adaptive is a machine? What happens when a machine is no longer doing what it's supposed to be doing? It comes to a standstill either in parts or as a whole. 

We need to start redesigning, refactoring, doing things differently, and then we can kick-start the machine again. But of course, in the times that we live in, where change is the new constant, change is happening at an accelerated pace, we can no longer operate like that. The way that we look at performance management and so on and so forth is all tied to the company as running as a well-oiled machine. But today, organisations need to be ecosystems. Ecosystems are beautiful, but they are complex adaptive systems. They are messy. They're always at the edge of chaos. So we need to really set up organisations in a very different way. That means we need to change the way we scout for talent, we enable talent, [and[ we accelerate performance.

So all of these aspects have to change, and especially our understanding of the different words has to change as well. So what, for instance, performance, what does it mean? Performance in the machine means you are doing what you're supposed to be doing: task completion. But performance in an ecosystem means value contribution. So we are using the same words, but we have very different meanings to it. 

What is Agile HR?

That is where Agile HR comes in. And Agile HR is really a term used to describe a more modern HR and people approach. And it's really for organisations and institutions who want to thrive in that fast-paced change and who want to continue to be adaptive and responsive, and innovative. And here is really where Agile comes in. 

HR and Agile is a Power Duo

So Agile and HR is really a power duo, and it's two sides of the same coin because, at the end of the day, it's all about people. Both of us care about people, and we have, you may have heard these terms: Agile for HR and HR for Agile. 

Agile for HR

So when we talk about Agile for HR, we mean how do we in the HR department leverage agility? So, how do we apply Agile practises to change the way that we are organised and the way that we deliver value across the organisation?

So this is really following that group blueprint, be it Kanban, LeSS, DAD, SAFe, [or] whatever you're using to bring that to the HR department. 

HR for Agile

But then we also have another part, this is HR for Agile, and this is all about how do we take all those HR practises, talent acquisition, talent management, performance management, compensation and so on and so forth, and align that with Agile ways of working? Align that with Agile thinking. And that's really where the power lies within HR. 

HR is the Secret to Business Agility

It doesn't matter how successful your SAFetransformation or your Agile transformation is; if we do not align the way we look at people, the way we lead people and the way we help people be their best selves at work, we are never going to get the maximum out of the actual transformation.

We are not leveraging that return on the investment. So if we start aligning all the HR practises, shifting away from talent acquisition to more talent scouting, shifting away from talent management to talent enablement and from performance management to performance acceleration, that is really where you increase the return on investment in your Agile transformations. And I'm sure you have some questions about that. To illustrate that, that is really the differentiator.

Agile HR Training

Now, if you want to learn more, we have three different options for you. 

On the one hand, we have the Agile HR Explorer course, which is a one-day introductory course for HR people who are new or fairly new to Agile. So, this is introducing the world of Agile to HR. 

Then we have the practitioner course, which is a two-day course that really focuses on HR practises. So we still go through the Agile foundations, but then this is really about how do we bring Agile to the HR department and how do we bring Agile to performance management, talent acquisition and so on.

And then last but not least, we have the coach training, which is really for Agile coaches who are starting to collaborate and help HR along their transformation journey. This is introducing the world of HR to actual coaches and helping them speak the same language, helping them understand what a grading system is and what the impact is, and also giving them an appreciation of how complex HR is and why certain things are not as easily fixed as we may think or just really understanding those connections. And we have those. 

If you want to know which one is the right course for you, we have a training selector, and I put that in the chat as well so that you can answer a couple of questions and it's going to tell you which course might be the best one for you. 

I'm super stoked to partner up with Em and her team to bring the training, those three different courses to Melbourne in December. So don't forget to sign up for those. 

Q&A

But let's open up the floor for questions and comments and thoughts that you have around that whole space of HR agility.

Em: Folks, you can raise your hand on Zoom. You can put a question in the chat if you are feeling shy. You're clearly all very curious because you came.

Hey Linda, I'll let you kick us off.

Linda: Hi, I'm an existing Agile coach, so I'm really curious about the HR stuff, the HR coaching side of things. I have previously done a similar certification but through IC Agile already in the HR sphere. So I'm curious to see what the training is. So, I guess my first question is, is the training online virtual or is it face-to-face? I'm calling in from Wellington in New Zealand. That's why I asked the question.

Fabiola: So that's a question for you.

Em: We have the HR enabler online, the practitioner and coach are intended to be on-site in Melbourne. So that is the current intent, but it's not too far to fly.

Linda: Yeah, it's just, I guess, the short notice.

Em: True.

Linda: The other observation that I made is that it's interesting that Fabiola, you talk about talent acquisition, talent management and so on, but yet the connotations associated with HR and the word, the terminology of human resources, it's kind of an old terminology in that way in terms of seeing human beings as resources. So, with the shift away to more about leveraging talent, imagination and all that kind of stuff, I was just wondering if there's going to be any evolution in the term HR?

Fabiola: Yes. So, the word HR or the term HR was first used in 1893 by John R. Commons So HR is 120 years old. But here is one thing that I always have to stress: funnily enough, in the Agile space, is that there is this misperception that HR people think about employees as resources, and that is simply not true. I started my career in finance, but I've been in the HR space for more than two decades. I've met thousands of HR people across the globe, and I still have to meet the one who thinks about people as resources. So I think they really do things with their best intentions. So, do we have a name change come up? Yes. So we have terms like employee talent, employee success, [and] people operations. The one that is most predominant or that I think is going to be the one that is going to take over is "people and culture".

That's one that is gaining a lot of traction. But here's the thing. What we care about is not the name change per se, but it's the game change. Because if you just change your name and you leave everything as is, you might as well stick with the old name. Okay. So, the reason why we keep continuing using the word HR is because that's a term that people know. If you say HR, everyone will know what you're talking about. When you go in and say "Agile People and Culture", they may not make that connection. But I absolutely agree. And name change is on the cards, and it's happening across many organisations already. But what we really care about is that we are living up to this new name.

Linda: Thank you, Fabiola.

Fabiola: Sure.

Em: Thanks both. I can see, Joel, you've got your hand up. I'm just going to go through a couple of the questions in the chat first, if that's okay. Try to provide balance. So the first one, Fabiola, is from Rob, who asked if you could just do a quick recap on Agile for HR and what that means.

Fabiola: Yes. So, when we use the word HR, it's often synonymously used for two things. On the one hand, we have the HR organisation, so that's really the HR department. So this is your compensation specialists, your grading experts, your recruiters, your learning and instructional designers. So this is really the HR department. But then HR, the word HR, is also used to describe a discipline or a function. So this is talent management, compensation and so on and so forth. Now, the approach to Agile is different whether we are talking about HR as an organisation or HR as a discipline, and that's why you have these two terms come up. So when we talk about HR as an organisation, how HR is organised, and how HR works, this is about Agile for HR, and the way that I always read it is what can A do for B?

So, in this case, what can Agile do for HR? So, this is about bringing Agile practices to the HR department. So, the same way for the Agile coaches in the room that you would introduce SAFe or scrum or kanban or any of the other practices to an IT department or a product development department. You do the same in HR. Organising around value streams, interdisciplinary teams, iterative ways of working, leveraging what those Agile practises. But then we have HR as a discipline, and this is about HR for Agile. So the question is, what can HR do for Agile? For the Agile organisation? This is about aligning all the HR practices and disciplines to an Agile way of working, applying Agile values. And this is also where we have to leverage business agility. So this is really the part that is going to increase the return on investment for your Agile transformation. 

Em: Brilliant. And I'll take one more from the chat, and I'll swap to Joel. Richard, talking about people I've known since around 2015 somewhere. Let's see. Richard asked, what is the typical first change that organisations make when introducing HR for Agile?

Fabiola: So when it's really about HR for Agile, usually they take an initiative or HR, we still call it a project. So, if you're talking with the HR community, you may have to go back to that word until you explain the difference, but you might change. For instance, you may change a part of learning and development, or you may change performance management. And it's quite often either a pain point that they have or an initiative that they plan to work on anyway. And then you train them, you set up the interdisciplinary team, you do your high-level roadmap, your epic hypothesis statement, and so on and so forth. So, you do that in an iterative way. Now, the thing about an Agile HR transformation, and I know that's not exactly your question, I'm just taking you to another level here, when we talk about an Agile HR transformation, it's not really a transformation that goes through five steps and you're done.

It's actually a multitude of several transformations. So, one company may start by reorganising HR around value streams, [and] introducing trains to the HR department. Another team may start by changing performance management and then saying, "Hey, this is actually quite neat. We want to do more iterative ways of working. How can we bring that into another initiative? How can we maybe change one of the teams?" And you always have a collection of different initiatives that are going on that are going to give you that overarching Agile HR and transformation. So it's not one set of steps, and you are done. So it's always a multitude of steps, and that, in turn, also means that the entry point might be different.

So, for some people, it's starting small. For other people, it is doing the big bang. So it's very different. And the thing is, when we talk about Agile for HR, that's quite prescriptive. If you go with SAFe, you have your roadmap, you have your steps mapped out, when and how to do a PI planning and so on and so forth. Whereas when we talk about HR for Agile, changing our HR practises it's less prescriptive because it also depends on what values do you as an organisation want to uphold. How is it embedded into the current system? How change-ready is the organisation? How far do you want to push boundaries? And that's going to inform your solution. So, that part is less prescriptive.

Em: Thanks for that one. Joel, do you want to chime in?

Joel: Yeah, thanks, Em, and thanks, Fabiola. I guess I have an observation and a bit of a reflection more than anything else. I'm a former HR director and executive from government and healthcare, and I also happened to be a trained SAFe Program Consultant (SPC) as well. (Note: SAFe Program Consultant was renamed SAFe Practice Consultant in SAFe 6.0.)

So I’ve had a long career in HR, People and Culture before moving into digital and now having my own business, which is trying to bring people back into technology. I guess the thing that I would say from either perspective, either using HR more in Agile or bringing Agile into HR... The HR perspective and the People and Culture perspective has been incredibly useful for me when looking at large-scale DevOps implementations or ways of working implementations or SAFe adoption. It gives you a really clear lens on organisational culture, organisational dynamics, and some of the entrenched system things that will reject that sort of adoption and change process. And then how to get around it. 

I think something like Prosci goes part of the way to being able to do it, but having that real operational HR experience brings certainly a different level of perspective to it. 

And I think the other observation is that progressive HR areas already work iteratively. So if you've got a good HR team, you've got a good People and Culture team that is customer-focused on outcome and not there saying no to everything, they're probably already working in a very customer-focused, iterative way to deliver value to customers. And so they're almost the better candidate, I would think, to use SAFe as an accelerator for them. So yes, I just had a couple of those observations from my former life, and now my current life is quite relevant, I think. So thank you.

Fabiola: Well, thank you so much for sharing. and we definitely need more people who can bridge that divide and who understand both sides of the equation and can really help us leverage that. So thank you so much, Joel, for sharing your story.

Em: Thanks, Joel. Thanks Fabiola. Going back to the chat, one from Joy, could you tell us more about how PX or HR teams deal with reactive work while working in an Agile way?

Fabiola: I'm not sure what reactive work [is]: what is meant by that, but is it more like running the business type of work?. And so the way that most, at least most, larger HR organisations are organised is a model that is from Dave Ulrich. The model is from about 1995, and he implemented the three-legged stool of HR. 

On the one hand, we have Leadership. 

Then we have our COEs, so these are your compensation experts, learning and development, talent management experts, compensation rating and so on and so forth. These are the people who are really doing project work, new initiatives. We have the COEs. 

Then, we have the Shared Service Centres (SSC). These folks are doing things like payroll; if you need your address changed, they do it, things like that. HR, IT/IS is here. 

Then we have our HR Business Partners (HRBP) who work with the business to make sure that the practices, tools and instruments that come out of the COEs are implemented properly within the business and the managers know how to use them.

Now, when it comes to Agile or Lean-Agile, in this case, we should say, here is really where you have Agile practices come in. So, they can definitely leverage Agile practices the most. It's a lot of project-based work. Then, here in shared service centres, we tend to see more Lean ways of working because it's more about increasing flow. And when it comes to HR and business partners, it's more sort of; they use more artefacts like iterative kanban boards, community of practices, things like that. But the biggest leverage when it comes to Agile is really with the COEs. So, I'm not sure if that goes into that reactive work part of the question.

Joy: Yes, it kind of does. Thank you. Yes, that's what I was meaning, I guess. I understand we work in an Agile way in our people projects based part of the HR team, but obviously, there are other parts to that team, like you said, shared services and HR BPs, that it doesn't always necessarily work that well for. So that's what that question was around. Thank you.

Fabiola: Okay.

Em: Great. Back to the chat. Shaimaa, what is the biggest challenge you face when transforming HR to Agile practices?

Fabiola: 

It's not unique to HR: it's resistance to change. It's the typical challenge that you have when you introduce something new to an organisation. And I think what we see in the HR space is quite often people just want to get started with something, and then they feel like, oh, we have a kanban board now we are Agile. Well, you're not quite there yet. And especially, what’s often what is missing is that understanding of the intent. So why are we embarking on an Agile journey? And I can tell you a funny yet sad story or, the other way around, a sad yet funny story from a pharmaceutical company.

It's not unique to HR: it's resistance to change.

Fabiola Eyholzer, Co-Founder of Just Leading Solutions

I met with the CHRO, and she really wanted to go all in with Agile I asked, “What are you hoping to gain from agility?” And she's like, "Well, I want to be able to just go up to anyone at any given time and say, Hey, can you do this? And they're happy to do it." Well, that's not quite what Agile is about. We really need to understand why we are embarking on that journey and what is the intent. What problem are we trying to solve? What does good look like? And the more we can have clarity around that, the better chance that the transformation has. But again, these are not unique challenges to HR. I'm sure Em and all the others can tell you tonnes of stories as well.

Em: Yep. Well, they say “change is hard”. Venkat has a question about the key takeaway from the training. So, I guess we had those three classes up earlier. Fabiola, how would you summarise the big learning outcome from each of them?

Fabiola: For me, it's really having that fundamental understanding of the new world of work. Because we use that, we throw that word around so often, but having that understanding [of] how and why is that world so fundamentally different to the world we are leaving behind? And if we have that understanding, everything else will click. It'll be easier to then understand how we are going to change practices: how we can leverage Agile values and principles?

So if I had to sum it up, it's really the inspiration that comes from it and having that wake-up call in a way as well to really see why is it different. Why is it not just about putting an existing process onto a fancy tool and make it shiny, and then hope that it's going to be a fantastic process? So it's really giving people that understanding.

And at the end of the day, training is extremely important. We need to speak the same language; we need to understand or also see what is possible. But at the end of the day, training can only do so much. So this is really about the inspiration, and we always follow it up with experimentation phases or even a transformation. But if you can't do the transformation, at least do some experiments, get some additional coaching, connect with people who have done this before and who can help you on that journey to make the learning stick.

Em: Great. Thank you very much for that. A thumbs up there from Venkat. A question from Joanne. Thank you, Fabiola, for the introduction. Can you provide some insights into the Agile mindset required or, if so, leading into Agile as an HR practice, please? So, an Agile mindset for HR practice?

Fabiola: Yes. And we talk about that in the training as well. I mean, and we say, what is Agile?  At the end of the day, Agile is a mindset. [A] mindset that's informed by those values and principles and the practices that we see in our PI plannings and scrum boards and so on is just the tip of the iceberg. 

So the mindset is important, but also it gets us into trouble, especially in HR, because some people feel like, oh, I don't need to do all those practices; we just have to apply an Agile mindset. But here is the problem. The Agile mindset is rooted in such a different set of values and beliefs, and world views that it takes hard work to really embody that, to have every fibre of being your thinking or corporate being, your corporate thinking aligned with those new values and principles. And what captures that best is really that shift from the company as a machine to the company as an ecosystem. And that means we are having a different worldview.

The Agile mindset is rooted in such a different set of values and beliefs, and world views that it takes hard work to really embody that, to have every fibre of being your thinking or corporate being, your corporate thinking aligned with those new values and principles. And what captures that best is really that shift from the company as a machine to the company as an ecosystem. And that means we are having a different worldview.

Fabiola Eyholzer, Co-Founder of Just Leading Solutions

So the mindset is extremely important, and the practices can help us live up to it. Because in HR, we have a tendency to say, "Oh, I just put my mind to it."But just because I put my mind to it doesn't mean I can achieve it. If I just put my mind to being a marathon runner, or I'll run an ironman or compete in an ironman, it's not going to be enough. So we need to put in elbow grease and put in the hard work. 

But just because I put my mind to it doesn't mean I can achieve it. If I just put my mind to being a marathon runner, or I'll run an ironman or compete in an ironman, it's not going to be enough. So we need to put in elbow grease and put in the hard work. 

Fabiola Eyholzer, Co-Founder of Just Leading Solutions

And I think I always say the devil is in the details when it comes to Agile. It resonates with us, okay? We're empowering people, and we're giving people that autonomy and mastery and purpose, everything. Of course, it resonates with us. We are moving into the human economy, of course, it sounds great, but then we have to live up to it. And it's not always easy to have that full transparency, to have that self-organisation, to have that empowerment.

And by the way, when we talk about empowerment in the HR space, this is not just about empowering people when it comes to their work. It's all empowering along the entire HR value stream, learning & development. Well, actually, we are empowering people to be in charge of their own learning and growth. So it's an entirely new mindset, and it's also part of the HR script to make sure that we align our processes and tools to that mindset so that the organisation can live up to that mindset.

Em: A thumbs up there from Joanne and a great analogy there, Fabiola, about the ironman... It's not magic. 

Adam, good to see you. Adam asked, can you share any examples of companies that have reached the Agile HR ecosystem nirvana, please.

Fabiola: So I'm not aware of one company, a large company, that has done everything. And here's the thing that I would say. If you want to know how Agile a company really is, follow the money. Look at portfolio management, look at budgeting, look at individual incentives, look at compensation, and those parts, the money part is going to tell you how Agile an organisation is. So I think it happens a lot in pockets. In large organisations, we often have what they call sort of innovation hubs. It's often the SAFe part of the organisation, [the] Agile part of the organisation where they have a carte blanche to change their HR approach as well. So it's happening in pockets, but as large organisations, even organisations who were born and raised in the digital age and who are great at delivering value in a natural way, many of their HR systems are still being transformed. So, I think we still have a bit of a way to go here.

Em: No miracles.

Fabiola: Nope. Unfortunately not. I'll keep waiting for Em to have that magic wand. And just go ahead and...

Em: Hey presto: Agile! 

Similar vein question here from Shibu. Do you have any case studies available that we can read through on an Agile transformation in HR?

Fabiola: For instance, I just posted something about this as an experience report where we changed the entire learning and development approach at a company that is working in a SAFe way. So, for the SAFe part of the company, which was in product development, we introduced an entirely new talent management approach that is captured in this experience report.

Em: Excellent. Thank you. It's nice to have that in your pocket like that. Folks, I have drained the questions in the chat. Did we have a little bit more time if folks had additional questions they wanted to ask, either as live people or by typing into the chat? We exhausted them, Fabiola.

Fabiola: It seems like it.

Em: It is also lunchtime, so I'm curious how many folks are going now, “if I get off the call now, I have 15 minutes, and I can eat”. Look at them; they all even look guilty. I can eat and get to my next meeting.

Fabiola: You know what? They're just waiting to sign up for one of the training sessions so that we can dig deeper into the topic. That's what it is. They want to keep holding onto their questions until we meet in December.

Em: Nice! All right, folks, thank you very much for coming along. Thank you for the questions and participation. Go grab some lunch before your next meeting because it's a long afternoon without any food. That is for sure. Thank you so much, Fabiola, for coming in and chatting to the crew and being so open with your expertise and willing to answer those questions for folks.

Fabiola: My pleasure. And if I may just say a closing word, It's never been this exciting to be in HR. And I know HR doesn't have the sexiest name out there, but you're going to find that it's extremely rewarding, and the things that the Agile and HR community can do together is going to be mind-blowing. And this is really the time to kick that movement into a higher gear and get it going.

It's never been this exciting to be in HR. And I know HR, it doesn't have the sexiest name out there, but you're going to find that it's extremely rewarding and the things that the Agile and HR community can do together is going to be mind-blowing. And this is really the time to kick that movement into a higher gear and get it going.

Fabiola Eyholzer, Co-Founder of Just Leading Solutions

Em: Yes, absolutely. I think the opportunity is now. I think you're right on that.

Fabiola: Thank you so much everyone. If you have any follow-up questions, ping me [or] look me up on LinkedIn. I'm the only one with my name, so I'm easy to find.

Em: Excellent. Yes, also happy to help get folks in touch with Fabiola if there's anything that you need. And I don't know, it's the 10th of November, so we might get a chance to meet again once more this year, folks. I haven't lined anything up yet, but stay tuned, and we'll see what comes. And hopefully, we'll see some of you in December talking about Agile HR in Melbourne. Thanks very much. Have a wonderful weekend, folks.